CB4AllStar VS The Okie

[BALLAHOLLIC]

Date ended: Thursday September 7thTopic: Best draft class ever?Rules: Keep it clean, No need to throw put instults and harmful remarks. You guys can just go at it unti the due date, Debate like crazy. If you both agree with the topic, See if you can prove your opponents points wrong, If you agree to the extent where there is nothing to debate about, Then say something and we will get you a new topic.Good luck.

[TheOkie]

Best Draft class ever? This is obvious in my opinion. The 2003 draft class is the best ever in the history of the NBA.Most people would agree with me, simply for the fact that it involved Wade, Melo, and Lebron. But that is not the case. Its not rare for a draft class to have more than one star, but it is the overall depth of the players in the draft which puts this at #1.Guys like Chris Bosh and Kirk Hinrich are players that are often overlooked. Almost any other year, those guys would have been rookie of the year candidates.Now lets take a look at the players outside of the top 10. People often forget that Josh Howard and even David West were part of the 2003 draft. Guys that weren't superstars right away, but if you paid any attention to last season you can see that those guys were absolute steals at where they fell.Clearly, the 2003 draft class is the best ever.

[CB4allstar]

In my mind the best draft class ever is the '84 class. Here is why:Let's take a look at some of the players coming out of that class:Michael Jordan- The best player ever at this point. Michael led the Bulls to 6 championships, and probably more if he did not decide to go play baseball, or if he kept playing a little longer. Michael was one of the most dominate players ever. He is probably the greatest scorer ever (Beating Wilt because MJ played in a much tougher era). He had a money mid-range jumper, he was unstoppable driving through the lane. He was one of the best defenders ever to go along with that, and was also a solid rebounder, and passer, and a great stealer. Let's take a look at some stats to prove my point.Career averages of 30.1 ppg (best ever), 6 rpg, 4 apg, 2.3 spg, .80 bpg, on .50 percent shooting. Those are simply unbelievable averages for a guard. His career highs are 69 points, 18 Rebounds (He did that twice), 17 assists, 10 steals. That is phenomanal. Let's look at his playoff stats now. He averaged 33 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg, 2.1 spg, and .9 bpg. So we know he is the greatest player ever because he even upped those already unbelievable numbers in playoff games. Michael was a 5 time MVP, (in possibly the best era ever), 10 Time all First team, DPOY in '85, 9 time All Defensive Team, 14 Time all Star, and a 6 time Finals MVP (all six chamionships).Bottom Line: Jordan is the greatest player to ever pick up a basketball. No questions asked.Hakeem Olajuwon-Hakeem is another one of the greatest players to ever play, and certainly atleast a top 8 player of all time. Hakeem was dominant inside. He had a great array of post moves, and jukes and such. He was also very athletic which helped him score easier. He also led the Rockets to back-to-back Championships in '94, and '95 respectively. Hakeem is also one of the greatest defensive players of all time. He was great at blocking shots, and was a force inside. He was also a top notch rebounder, and definately a top 4 Center of all time. Here are some of his stats and honors:He has career averages of 22 ppg, 11 rpg, 3 bpg (OMG!), 1.7 spg on .512 percent shooting. And his averages would have been even higher if he had retired sooner and had not stretched his career out to 18 seasons. His playoff averages are 26 ppg, 11 rpg, 3.2 bpg, 1.7 spg on .530 shooting. So Hakeem is another player that simply played great in the playoffs. His career highs are 52 points, 25 rebounds (5 times!), 12 assists, 12 blocks (2 times), 8 steals. He even got a quadruple-double one night. He is one of the few to ever achieve that. His honors include 1 MVP award, 2 time DPOY winner, 6 time All NBA First team, and a 12 Time All star.Bottom Line: Hakeem is atleast top 7 player of all time, and certainly one of the best to ever play the game.John Stockton-John Stockton is one of the greatest pg's to ever play, and also one of the greatest PLAYERS to NEVER win an NBA title. John was an unbelievable passing point, and was simply unbelievable running an offense. He was also the greatest stealer ever (leads all NBA players ever with 3, 265 steals all time), and a great defender. He was also very good at using his quickness to his advantage, and was also a great shooter, and a 17 ppg scorer in his prime. He and Malone anchored the Jazz for more than a decade, and if it weren't for MJ in his prime, and also Showtime, they would have won atleast 1 NBA title. Stockton set a record for averaging 14 apg in a season! He also got over 10 apg in a season 10 times! He is also a top notch defender. He is probably a top 10 player to ever play the game.His career averages are 13 ppg, 10.5 apg, 2.7 rpg, 2.2 spg, on an amazing .515 percent shooting. His playoff averages are 13 ppg, 10 apg, 2.5 rpg, 1.9 spg, on 47% shooting. He has career highs of 34 points, 28 assists, (Holy crap!), 9 rpg (5 times), 9 steals and 3 blocks (4 times). His honors include being a two time All First Time (played in the same time as Magic), 6 time All Second Team, 3 Time All Third Team, 5 time All-Defensive Team, and a 10 Time All Star.Bottom Line: Stockton is the 2nd greatest pg to ever play, and a top 10 NBA player, ever.Charles Barkley-Charles was one of the greatest players in the 80’s. He was a top notch rebounder, great defender, he had good range and he had a very nice post game. He really put up some great numbers and averaged 22 and 12 for his career. He is undersized for a big at 6”6, but was still one of the best rebounders of his time. He was an MVP in 1993, he made all first team 5 times, all second team another 5 times, and slipped to 3rd time once. He is also an 11 time all star and named as one of the 50 greatest players.Bottom Line: Charles is also one of the best players ever, and caps off a draft class with 4 of the 50 greatest players in it.Other Notable Players:Sam Bowie: Considered a bust because he was picked before Jordan, but he actually had a decent career, with lifetime averages of 11 and 7.Sam Perkins: Had a solid career, mainly playing PF for the Mavs. Lifetime averages of 12 and 6.Alvin Robertson: Had very good days playing guard for the Spurs. He even averaged 20 ppg one year. He was a great stealer too, pick pocketing the ball 2100+ times and amounted an impressive 301 steals one year. Has lifetime averages of 14, 4, and 4.Otis Thorpe: Otis had a very impressive career. His career averages don’t fully show how good he was in his prime. He averaged 21 ppg one year, and 17 ppg 6 times in a row. He had some great years with the Kings and Rockets. He decided to play until 2001, which makes his career stats of 14 and 8 seem more impressive.Kevin Willis: From seeing him play a couple years ago, you may think this guy is a stiff. But for his career, that is simply not the case. He had some great years in Atlanta, even averaging 19 and 12 one year. He kept playing until 2004, so his career averages don’t look very impressive, but he was an excellent player in his prime.Jay Humphries: Averaged up to 15 ppg for Milwaukee. Career averages of 11.1 ppg and 5.5 apg. He was a skilled point who averages up to 7 apg one year.Vern Fleming: Spent all but one year of his career with the Pacers. Career averages of 11 ppg, 3 rpg, and 4.4 apg.Tony Campbell: Had a pretty quiet career until one season where he exploded for 23 ppg and 5.5 rpg. Both were career highs by far. I put him on for that spectacular season. He has career averages of 11 and 3.Ron Anderson: Had one very solid 16 ppg year for the Sixers. Maintained career averages of 11 ppg and 3.5 rpg Jerome Kersey: Had some great years for the Trail Blazers. Had one 19 ppg, 8 rpg season. Maintains career averages of 10 and 5.5So as you can see, the ’84 draft features 4 of the greatest players ever, and also some other solid players to add onto that. In my eyes, this is simply the best class ever because it features the best player ever, a dominant defensive and offensive mastermind in The Dream, Hakeem Olauwon, one of the greatest pg's and passing pg's ever, and a griddy, tough, PF with a nose for the ball and a great scorer.Best Draft class ever? This is obvious in my opinion. The 2003 draft class is the best ever in the history of the NBA.You obviously don't know much about NBA History if you think that the '03 class is the best ever. You are out of your mind if you think Carmelo, Bosh, Wade, and Lebron are better than Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Charles Barkley, and John Stockton.Most people would agree with me, simply for the fact that it involved Wade, Melo, and Lebron. But that is not the case. Its not rare for a draft class to have more than one star, but it is the overall depth of the players in the draft which puts this at #1.You obviously are overlooking the '84 draft. I dont think anyone would agree with you that the '03 draft is better that has even a bit of knowledge of the NBA's past.Now lets take a look at the players outside of the top 10. People often forget that Josh Howard and even David West were part of the 2003 draft. Guys that weren't superstars right away, but if you paid any attention to last season you can see that those guys were absolute steals at where they fell.Alright, let me take a look outside the top 10 of the '84 draft. John Stockton, Kevin Willis, Vern Fleming, Tony Campbell, Ron Anderson, and Jerome Kersey. Please..don't even bring up players after the 10th pick.Clearly, the 2003 draft class is the best ever.This is one of the most ignorant statements Ive ever encountered. Please, do some research on other drafts before you say 2003 is clearly the best. '84 is alot better than '03 in my opinion and in most others. I already mentioned why so I don't think I have to bring that up again.By the way, one of the major chinks in your first post is that you hardly went into depth about the players in the '03 draft or why it was the best.

[TheOkie]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Sep 2 2006, 08:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=150323)</div><div class='quotemain'>You obviously don't know much about NBA History if you think that the '03 class is the best ever. You are out of your mind if you think Carmelo, Bosh, Wade, and Lebron are better than Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Charles Barkley, and John Stockton.</div> I dont think I ever said that Lebron, Wade, Bosh and Carmello are better than those guys. If I did, please show me cause I don't remember it. Who knows, maybe there is a chance that they could be better. Lebron is only 21 years old, and he is averaged 31 points a game last season, its obvious Lebron hasn't even hit his prime yet, so hes only going to get better. I'm not here to talk about how Lebron is going to be better than Michael, because no one will. As for the other 3, Carmello averaged 26 a game last year, Wade 27, Bosh 22 and 9. At this point, as a group these 4 don't match up with the top 4 in 84 draft, but keep in mind they are only in their 3rd year in the league. They are most likely not going to be better, but the difference is not that big.But once we get passed the top four players in each draft, is where the '03 class takes the cake.Josh Howard: 15 points and 6 boards last year.Kirk Hinrich: 16 and 6 assistsDavid West: 17 and 7Boris Diaw: 13 and 7Chris Kaman: 12 and 9Marquis Daniels: 10, 4 and 3 coming off the benchLuke Ridnour: 12 and 7 assistsLeandro Barbosa: 13, 3 and 3 backing up the MVPT.J. Ford: 12 and 6 coming off an injured seasonKyle Korver: 12 3 and 2 None of these guys have even hit their prime yet, so get ready to watch these numbers grow

[CB4allstar]

I dont think I ever said that Lebron, Wade, Bosh and Carmello are better than those guys. If I did, please show me cause I don't remember it.Uh, you said that most people would agree with you simply because of Lebron, Melo, and Wade, which means that you thought that those three players make the '03 class better than any other class. That's where you are wrong. John Stockton, Hakeem, Barkley, and Jordan>>>>>>>those 3 by far.Who knows, maybe there is a chance that they could be better. Lebron is only 21 years old, and he is averaged 31 points a game last season, its obvious Lebron hasn't even hit his prime yet, so hes only going to get better.Lebron will never be better than Jordan. I'm sorry, but Lebron doesnt come close to Jordan's defense, or anything else besides long range shooting of Jordan's game. And by the way, if you want to shove Lebron's 31 points in my face, Jordan scored 37 ppg in his 3rd season. Touche.At this point, as a group these 4 don't match up with the top 4 in 84 draft, but keep in mind they are only in their 3rd year in the league. They are most likely not going to be better, but the difference is not that big.That group will never be better than the '84 big four, thank you very much.But once we get passed the top four players in each draft, is where the '03 class takes the cake.Josh Howard: 15 points and 6 boards last year.Kirk Hinrich: 16 and 6 assistsDavid West: 17 and 7Boris Diaw: 13 and 7Chris Kaman: 12 and 9Marquis Daniels: 10, 4 and 3 coming off the benchLuke Ridnour: 12 and 7 assistsLeandro Barbosa: 13, 3 and 3 backing up the MVPT.J. Ford: 12 and 6 coming off an injured seasonKyle Korver: 12 3 and 2Let's take a look at some of the players I listed in their 3rd seasons.Alvin Robertson: 18, 5, 5Otis Thrope: 19 ppg, 10 rpgSam Perkins: 15 ppg, 8 rpgSam Bowie: 16 ppg, 7 rpgKevin Willis: 16 ppg, 10.5 rpgJay Humphries: 11 ppg, 8 apg, 3 rpgVern Fleming: 12 ppg, 6 apg, 4 rpgMichael Cage: 16 ppg, 11.5 rpgRon Anderson: 10 ppg, 4 rpg, 2 apgJerome Kersey: 12 ppg, 6 rpg, 2 apgSo as you can see, the '84 depth is even better than the depth you listed. So how does the '03 draft take the cake after you get past the top 4 players when the '84 draft is EVEN BETTER past the top 4 players. Got you there, buddy.

[CB4allstar]

Alright, it's September 7th. Judges?

[SunnyD]

I'm not voting, but CB4 made it so that this shouldn't even be in the contest thread. Easy pickup for CB4.

[Hang Eleven]

Umm...Clear winner is CB4. He won basically all the debate points, and TheOkie didn't reply....so.

[TheOkie]

Crap i forgot about this....2003 is better because i say so... that should be all the debate needed

[SunnyD]

But it's not, so your basically eliminated.

[iversonfan268]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheOkie @ Sep 7 2006, 05:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=153874)</div><div class='quotemain'>Crap i forgot about this....2003 is better because i say so... that should be all the debate needed</div>The Okie your an idiot shutup. You just basically had every point you made by cb4 proved wrong and you made yourself look like an idiot. The '03 draft isn't even a top 3. the '96 and '99 draft were both better. I'm not even going to bother listing them because anyone who knows basketball knows those drafts were filled with more talent than the '03 draft.

[CB4allstar]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iversonfan268 @ Sep 8 2006, 07:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154159)</div><div class='quotemain'>The Okie your an idiot shutup. You just basically had every point you made by cb4 proved wrong and you made yourself look like an idiot. The '03 draft isn't even a top 3. the '96 and '99 draft were both better. I'm not even going to bother listing them because anyone who knows basketball knows those drafts were filled with more talent than the '03 draft.</div>Dude, F*ck off man. He's just joking around. It was a good debate man, I had fun.

[iversonfan268]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Sep 8 2006, 03:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154162)</div><div class='quotemain'>Dude, F*ck off man. He's just joking around. It was a good debate man, I had fun.</div>Ok sorry I didn't know that and I was trying to prove a point. It's not exactly easy to be able to tell if someone is joking or not on the internet and I thought he was serious. BTW no offense or anything but why do you always speak for people? Since when did you get asked in this. Did the Okie tell you to speak for him? I doubt it.

[CB4allstar]

No, I just replied because you were being a dickhead to him.

[iversonfan268]

The '03 draft does have more stars but the '99 draft is arguably better depth wise...Elton BrandRon ArtestBaron DavisSteve FrancisLamar Odom Rip HamiltonWally SzczerbiakManu GinobliShawn MarionAndre MillerJason TerryCory MaggetteAndrei KirilenkoJames PoseyBTW once again I was only being a dickhead because I thought he was serious. If I knew he wasn't kidding do you really think i would take that statement seriously? Also why did you edit the post? Because you realized what I said is debatable?

[CB4allstar]

And the '03 class has Lebron, Dwade, Melo, Bosh, Hinrich, Josh Howard, Boris Diaw, and others.The '99 draft has no superstars, and the '04 draft has two players who already are superstars, and 2 more potential superstars. I dont care about depth. Thats why I would rank it as a better class.

[iversonfan268]

Yes I realize there isn't many superstars in that draft but I'm pretty sure Brand has become one. Plus this draft is filled with all star calibur players and great role players and second options. That's why I think it's so good.w/e though I agree the '99 draft isn't clearly better but it is arguable. I'm done though. I shouldn't be posting in here.

[CB4allstar]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iversonfan268 @ Sep 8 2006, 07:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154174)</div><div class='quotemain'>Yes I realize there isn't many superstars in that draft but I'm pretty sure Brand has become one. Plus this draft is filled with all star calibur players and great role players and second options. That's why I think it's so good.</div>No, he has not. Youre idea of a superstar is too generic. Superstars are select few like Kobe, AI, Tmac, DWade, Lebron, KG, TD, maybe Dirk..BTW: There has only been 1 judge so far. Come on guys.

[iversonfan268]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Sep 8 2006, 03:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154175)</div><div class='quotemain'>No, he has not. Youre idea of a superstar is too generic. Superstars are select few like Kobe, AI, Tmac, DWade, Lebron, KG, TD, maybe Dirk..BTW: There has only been 1 judge so far. Come on guys.</div>Ok this is my last response? If Brand isn't a super star why do you call Bosh one?

[CB4allstar]

I did, but then I agreed that Bosh is not a superstar. I was like you. My ranking of a superstar was too easy-going. Brand and Bosh are both great players, but not superstars.BTW, Josh Howard, Hinrich, Kaman, and Ford will all be great players, to go along with the 4 greats.

[Heatfan32]

Elton Brand not a superstar? :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: :HAHAHA: Please do tell me CB4, since when is a MVP candidate not a superstar?

[CB4allstar]

Dude, Elton Brand is not a superstar. The superstars are Lebron, TMac, AI, KG, Duncan, Wade, and maybe Dirk.

[iversonfan268]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Sep 8 2006, 03:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154179)</div><div class='quotemain'>I did, but then I agreed that Bosh is not a superstar. I was like you. My ranking of a superstar was too easy-going. Brand and Bosh are both great players, but not superstars.BTW, Josh Howard, Hinrich, Kaman, and Ford will all be great players, to go along with the 4 greats.</div>lol I would never consider a player like Bosh a superstar at this point in his career. He hasn't had any success teamwise in his career so far. Brand can be considered a superstar now. He averaged 25 ppg, 10 rpg, and 2.5 bpg includign leading the Clippers into a very successful season. He was an MVP candidate most of the season and was a true leader. I'm pretty sure if he stays like this he can be considered a superstar.

[Heatfan32]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Sep 8 2006, 06:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154187)</div><div class='quotemain'>Dude, Elton Brand is not a superstar. The superstars are Lebron, TMac, AI, KG, Duncan, Wade, and maybe Dirk.</div>Yes your right CB4, the same guy that said Bosh is a superstar is saying Brand isn't one. Did you watch him against Phoenix in the playoffs? I guess not.

[CB4allstar]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iversonfan268 @ Sep 8 2006, 07:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154188)</div><div class='quotemain'>lol I would never consider a player like Bosh a superstar at this point in his career. He hasn't had any success teamwise in his career so far. Brand can be considered a superstar now. He averaged 25 ppg, 10 rpg, and 2.5 bpg includign leading the Clippers into a very successful season. He was an MVP candidate most of the season and was a true leader. I'm pretty sure if he stays like this he can be considered a superstar.</div>He is a borderline superstar, but not yet. Maybe if he has another even better season then he could be considered a superstar. The line between an All Star, and a Superstar is alot larger than you make it out to be. I know Bosh isnt a superstar. I already admitted that. But he has the potential to be. He averaged 22 and 9 in his 3rd season. Being an MVP candidate doesnt make you a superstar. Is Chauncey Billups also a superstar? No. Beingt an MVP candidate doesnt mean that you are a top 5 player in the League.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heatfan32 @ Sep 8 2006, 07:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154194)</div><div class='quotemain'>Yes your right CB4, the same guy that said Bosh is a superstar is saying Brand isn't one. Did you watch him against Phoenix in the playoffs? I guess not.</div>F*ck off, man. I already retracted that statement.

[Heatfan32]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Sep 8 2006, 06:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154195)</div><div class='quotemain'>He is a borderline superstar, but not yet. Maybe if he has another even better season then he could be considered a superstar. The line between an All Star, and a Superstar is alot larger than you make it out to be. I know Bosh isnt a superstar. I already admitted that. But he has the potential to be. He averaged 22 and 9 in his 3rd season. Being an MVP candidate doesnt make you a superstar. Is Chauncey Billups also a superstar? No. Beingt an MVP candidate doesnt mean that you are a top 5 player in the League.F*ck off, man. I already retracted that statement.</div>Chauncey isn't a superstar, Brand isn't a superstar. What's next, all of a sudden LeBron isn't a superstar either!? He wasn't only a MVP candidate, he was sixth in votes I believe, which is great. Also, even if you did take back that statement you still said it and it was a pretty dumb one. I'll make sure to make a poll now to see if Brand is a superstar or not.

[iversonfan268]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Sep 8 2006, 03:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154195)</div><div class='quotemain'>He is a borderline superstar, but not yet. Maybe if he has another even better season then he could be considered a superstar. The line between an All Star, and a Superstar is alot larger than you make it out to be. I know Bosh isnt a superstar. I already admitted that. But he has the potential to be. He averaged 22 and 9 in his 3rd season. Being an MVP candidate doesnt make you a superstar. Is Chauncey Billups also a superstar? No. Beingt an MVP candidate doesnt mean that you are a top 5 player in the League.F*ck off, man. I already retracted that statement.</div>Dude this guy isn't like CB4. Was my only point that he was an MVP candidate? No it wasn't. The guy had great numbers this season and lead a team everyone was expecting to suck into the 2nd round of the playoffs with a decent seeding in the very tough Western Conference. Tell me how he isn't a super star after that?

[CB4allstar]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heatfan32 @ Sep 8 2006, 07:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154199)</div><div class='quotemain'>Chauncey isn't a superstar, Brand isn't a superstar. What's next, all of a sudden LeBron isn't a superstar either!? He wasn't only a MVP candidate, he was sixth in votes I believe, which is great. Also, even if you did take back that statement you still said it and it was a pretty dumb one. I'll make sure to make a poll now to see if Brand is a superstar or not.</div>That's where I lost interest in debating this with you.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iversonfan268 @ Sep 8 2006, 07:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154200)</div><div class='quotemain'>Dude this guy isn't like CB4. Was my only point that he was an MVP candidate? No it wasn't. The guy had great numbers this season and lead a team everyone was expecting to suck into the 2nd round of the playoffs with a decent seeding in the very tough Western Conference. Tell me how he isn't a super star after that?</div>Because he doesnt fit in with the likes who are superstars, just yet.

[Heatfan32]

The same guy who said a finals MVP isn't a superstar, I'm the one who shouldn't be wasting my time with you.

[CB4allstar]

I never said that, man.Can you just judge my goddamn debate, btw?

[iversonfan268]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Sep 8 2006, 03:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154202)</div><div class='quotemain'>That's where I lost interest in debating this with you.</div>Chauncey can easily be defined a superstar and is arguably the most underrated player in the game by people who don't actually follow it much. He is probably the best all around PG in the league behind Kidd but has actually won a ring. The guy can do so much. He is a great passer and can set anyone up when he wants. He is a great playmaker as well whether it's setting himself up or not. He can shoot well especially from 3 point range or take it to the baseline well. He is one of the best defenders in the league. He is a leader and has had success for mostly all of his career. Last he is increddibly clutch and can take control of the game when he needs to.

[CB4allstar]

OMG. Jesus Christ.Chauncey is a great player, but he just isnt at a superstar level. He doesnt fit in with Lebron James, TMac, AI, and others are superstar guards.

[iversonfan268]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Sep 8 2006, 03:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154212)</div><div class='quotemain'>OMG. Jesus Christ.Chauncey is a great player, but he just isnt at a superstar level. He doesnt fit in with Lebron James, TMac, AI, and others are superstar guards.</div>Why because he doesn't get as much publicity as those guys? Honeslty tell me why. He has had success throughout his career and has as much talent as those guys. Every player you have listed as a superstar are just players that get the most publicity.

[CB4allstar]

Because he isnt even a top 10 player. Thats why. Goddamn, it stop bothering me. Im not going to reply to this anymore. I just want my debate judged.

[iversonfan268]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Sep 8 2006, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154219)</div><div class='quotemain'>Because he isnt even a top 10 player. Thats why. Goddamn, it stop bothering me. Im not going to reply to this anymore. I just want my debate judged.</div>Your not answering my question at all. By that statement you just proved nothing. He isn't a top 10 player? Why? Because he doesn't get much media coverage? I guess that makes all the difference even though the guy is one of the most talented player out there. He has had more team success in his career also than most of these so called suoer stars you listed.

[CB4allstar]

In no order:LebronWadeKGDuncanTMacAIDirkKobeShaqYaoAll are better players. Okay, I lied about not replying.

[iversonfan268]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Sep 8 2006, 03:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154232)</div><div class='quotemain'>In no order:LebronWadeKGDuncanTMacAIDirkKobeShaqYaoAll are better players. Okay, I lied about not replying.</div>Yao??? LMAO wow dude. Yao does not have more talent than Billups. I'm not one of those haters who says Yao sucks and is incredibly overrated but to sya he has more actual talent then Billups is rediculous. Billups is more clutch, a better leader, more versatile scorer, etc. etc.

[CB4allstar]

Who said anything about talent? Yao averages 22 and 10, and plays solid defense. He is the best, or 2nd best Center in the League, and yeah, better than Billups.

[iversonfan268]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Sep 8 2006, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154236)</div><div class='quotemain'>Who said anything about talent? Yao averages 22 and 10, and plays solid defense. He is the best, or 2nd best Center in the League, and yeah, better than Billups.</div>Ok if you want to use stats that's cool with me. Chauncey averaged 18.5ppg, 8.5 apg, while shooting 90% from the free throw line and 43 % from 3 point range, and only averaged 2 tpg which is great for a pg who actually is the playmaker. He also lead his team to the best record in the league, actually stayed healthy and reliable, actually got his team into the playoffs and led them to the ECF. Not too mention he plays superb defense and not just solid d. Oh yeah Billups actually has a basketball IQ and knows what he's doing out there.

[BigMo763]

Anyways, back to the actual debate...Winner: CB4AllStarHe just made his case more clearly, and there is absolutely no way in hell the 2003 draft class can be considered better than the 1984 or the 1996 draft class at this point in time. The players have only been in the league three years... it's impossible.

[CB4allstar]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iversonfan268 @ Sep 8 2006, 08:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154240)</div><div class='quotemain'>Ok if you want to use stats that's cool with me. Chauncey averaged 18.5ppg, 8.5 apg, while shooting 90% from the free throw line and 43 % from 3 point range, and only averaged 2 tpg which is great for a pg who actually is the playmaker. He also lead his team to the best record in the league, actually stayed healthy and reliable, actually got his team into the playoffs and led them to the ECF. Not too mention he plays superb defense and not just solid d. Oh yeah Billups actually has a basketball IQ and knows what he's doing out there.</div>The thing is, big men are more valuable than guards. Yao is one of the best bigs and Centers in the League. You cant really compare a 1 to a 5, but If I had to choose who to put on my team, it would obviously be Yao because big men win you games as well. He led his team to the best record in the League? Oh yeah, there were those guys, Rasheed, Tayshaun, Ben, Richard, but they didnt do anything, did they? On the other hand, TMac and Yao both stuggled with on and off injuries, and the rest of their team sucks without them. They will make the playoffs next year though, count on it.

[iversonfan268]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Sep 8 2006, 04:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=154249)</div><div class='quotemain'>The thing is, big men are more valuable than guards. Yao is one of the best bigs and Centers in the League. You cant really compare a 1 to a 5, but If I had to choose who to put on my team, it would obviously be Yao because big men win you games as well. He led his team to the best record in the League? Oh yeah, there were those guys, Rasheed, Tayshaun, Ben, Richard, but they didnt do anything, did they? On the other hand, TMac and Yao both stuggled with on and off injuries, and the rest of their team sucks without them. They will make the playoffs next year though, count on it.</div>Yeah your right a C is more valuable than a PG. That doesn't make Yao a better player. A player like Billups is actually very rare in this league though. How many Point Guards in this league are as versatile as him? There is probably only two others in this league and they are Paul and Kidd. Sure Billups had lots of help but don't say all rosters with that much quality would win 64 games every season. Is it a coincidence that the year Billups has a career year the Pistons play incredible? The Pistons were never a 64 win team when Billups wasn't performing liek he did last season. Billups is the true leader of that team and actually can get his team far in the playoffs. Sure the Rockets have an excuse for not making the playoffs this season but what about 04-05? They had T-Mac and Yao both very healthy and completely embarresed themselves against the Mavs. Yao will never be the leader Billups is.

[CB4allstar]

I would rather have Yao than Billups. But Im not about to debate that. They play too very different positions.Anyway, being a great player does not make you a superstar.

[Hang Eleven]

This thread should seriously be locked. We all know CB4 is going through, a mod or something should just lock it already.